Mon Oct 12 04:07:24 2020
<2bdaedc4> Uhh I know people who died. So offensive.
<8f79fcda> I know someone who has died too
<2bdaedc4> And lets be CLEAR. The thing that TC posted only shows that masks may not be very effective at preventing you from catching it. It says nothing about dampening the spreading of it.
<2bdaedc4> And thats hte main thing about the masks – is if you are asymptomatic, it makes you less virulent. That is the primary argument for wearing masks and the study that TC posted doesn’t really address that one bit.
<8f79fcda> I guess I’ve got a target on my back
<2bdaedc4> it is the same shit people said about seat-belts. Public health issues, much like fires, are not solved by Western ideals of rugged individualism.
<2bdaedc4> I just used your name to be clear what I am referencing. ?
<9e126bf3> I meant in the WH
<9e126bf3> nobody dying there
<9e126bf3> look, ppl have diedd
<2bdaedc4> The argument Joe made could also made about obeying and worshippiung coips. “represnet a willingness to obey”.
<9e126bf3> I know someone that supposedly died of it too, except there was some sketchy stuff with the test, they did it multiple times and a few time he tested neg
<9e126bf3> Masks != seat belts. Seat bealts actually keep you in the car. Masks don’t keep the particles out. And many argue that asymptomatic are actually capable of spreading meaningfully
<9e126bf3> because it requires droplets
<2bdaedc4> I know of multiple people who died. Only one who was younger and seemed perfectly healthy.
<9e126bf3> that they arent producing
<8f79fcda> They _can_ be solved that way. Like not being a prediabetic, or not being disallowed from managing forest undergrowth on your own property because some greenie bureaucrat tells you you can’t. Or your tax dollars can’t be used for that
<9e126bf3> Someone not wearing a mask isn’t killing people
<2bdaedc4> No, the reasoning behind the anti-seatbelt law crowd echo those of the masks.
<9e126bf3> Someone wearing a mask isn’t keeping people aliive
<8f79fcda> _And_ masks are not seatbelts.
<8f79fcda> The feeling I get from society is “Wear a hijab cuz the imam fauci says so”
<2bdaedc4> doh, but the arguments are basically the same – and seatbelts didn’t lead anywhere. It was seen as a big symbolic slipper slope bs thing
<2bdaedc4> “they keep you strapped in during a fire and you can’t get out”
<2bdaedc4> I only make the analogy for the sentiment behind the anti-* crowd and they’re both health / safety issues.
<2bdaedc4> Obviously it has many holes in it and it isn’t meant to be a direct analogy
<8f79fcda> What ever happened to flatten the curve? Is it flat enough yet?
<2bdaedc4> And it isn’t a fear of death lurking around the corner. It is longterm health consequences that aren’t understood. (I know of people with that..) It is the fact that if it went unabatted it’d bring the healthcare system to its knees. You guys love to oversimplify the other side.. I get it..
<2bdaedc4> Well, it was flattened AFAIK. I don’t get your point.
<2bdaedc4> It actually almost overflattened it.. but it is ahrd to separate lockdowns/behavioral changes/masks
<8f79fcda> That was the whole point of the lockdown and social distancing measures and masks
<8f79fcda> And all we’re left with are behavioral changes
<2bdaedc4> yes, that is the point.
<9e126bf3> we flattened it so hard hospitals closed because no volume
<9e126bf3> healthcare workers lost jobs when they were supposed to be essential
<2bdaedc4> which hospital was this ?
<9e126bf3> fucking mad world
<9e126bf3> dude across the country
<8f79fcda> Take the log from your own eye before taking the speck from mine
<2bdaedc4> well name them…
<2bdaedc4> shouldn’tr be hard at all
<2bdaedc4> I want to make sure it is actual hospitals and not these scammy ER rooms…
<2bdaedc4> which were the only doctors who spoke out publicly against lockdowns. Those guys. THe guys who figured serving people isn’t where the money is – it is running those scammy ER rooms
<9e126bf3> many hospitals had to fire workers and a good number just closed. That said yeah there are scammy ER rooms. Guess what, even the major hospitals are scammy ER roomss
<8f79fcda>
<8f79fcda> <http://Lmgtfy.com|Lmgtfy.com>
<2bdaedc4> So tell me a hospital bro, it shouldn’t be that hard…. or live in a fantasy world.
<9e126bf3> ^
<2bdaedc4> I’ve never heard that hospiutals were shutdown because of Corona…
<8f79fcda> Here’s a list of recent headlines about hospitals closing
<9e126bf3> Bro it has absolutely destroyed the economics of healthcare right now
<9e126bf3> in our fucked up system
<9e126bf3> so people are losing jobs because of this rona madness
<9e126bf3> in healthcaree
<9e126bf3> where they are supposedly needed most
<9e126bf3> people aren’t going to the hospitals for normal procedures for many reasons… they go untreated and die
<9e126bf3> and the hospitals die because they don’t have volume
<2bdaedc4> It would be nice to have full URLs..
<2bdaedc4> Either way, things would have been fucked.
<8f79fcda> Oh cmon
<2bdaedc4> I can’t read it. Uhh ?
<9e126bf3> <https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/finance/14-rural-hospital-closures-in-2020.html>
— 14 rural hospital closures in 2020: Nearly one in five Americans live in rural areas and depend on their local hospital for care. Over the past 10 years, 131 of those hospitals have closed.
— Nearly one in five Americans live in rural areas and depend on their local hospital for care. Over the past 10 years, 131 of those hospitals have closed.
<2bdaedc4> I acrtually like to read things and not have all my shit based on screenshots and simplfied to a few setnences.
<8f79fcda> Jab jab jab
<9e126bf3> <https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-16/a-small-rural-hospital-in-west-virginia-shutters-its-doors>
— In a time of pandemic, another rural hospital shuts its doors
— Williamson Memorial Hospital did not treat any COVID-19 patients, but the coronavirus wreaked a devastating financial blow, causing ER visits to plummet.
<9e126bf3> <https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/09/15/912866179/some-urban-hospitals-face-closure-or-cutbacks-as-the-pandemic-adds-to-fiscal-woe>
— Some Urban Hospitals Face Closure Or Cutbacks As The Pandemic Adds To Fiscal Woes
— Experts fear that the economic pressures of the COVID-19 crisis are helping push some urban hospitals over the edge at the very time they are most needed in low-income communities.
<9e126bf3> <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/26/us/hospital-closures-west-virginia-ohio.html>
— Closed Hospitals Leave Rural Patients ‘Stranded’ as Coronavirus Spreads
— A for-profit company bought three struggling hospitals in West Virginia and Ohio. Doctors were fired, supplies ran low and many in need of care had to journey elsewhere. Then the doors shut for good.
<2bdaedc4> So in what transfix posted, yes the rate of hospital closures have went up.. and no doubt that a few stragglers were put under but I’d be very hesistant to believe it is soley Corona. It isn’t like healthy hospitals shutdown. Lots of businesses of this were hurt.
<8f79fcda> >Show me evidence.
>Here’s evidence.
>I still don’t believe it.
<2bdaedc4> I believe it.. I was very pissy about that, because repeatedly the doctors who made national press ran these for profit ER rooms.. which are so fucking sketch just like those doctors.
<2bdaedc4> So yes, a few mroe rural hospitals closed down than usual this year. This appears to be true.
<2bdaedc4> The first link had average of 13 a year shutting down for past 10 years and this year had 14 as of the time of writing it… and yes, thats not a surprise – but these places were not anywehre near sound financially to begin with. So ti is a bit silly to point them out. A lot of businesses have been hurt., If this thing was left to run unabated things would have been really really nasty for some time. I’m a little surprised they didn’t loosen lockdown stuff in Texas.. It went from underdoing it to overdoing it..
<8f79fcda> shovel your own and make us all to be fools. At the very least give us a more plausible narrative than: “hospitals are severely limited in their ability to do procedures because of covid – it is probable that these hospitals are closing due to lack of admissions for other things and therefore cannot rationalize holding onto underutilized staff”
<2bdaedc4> I mean, yes and most p;eople don’t die but old people.. just like most hospitals aren’t going out of business.. it is unfortunate all around.
<8f79fcda> If they were already on shaky ground… it’s possible the overregulation of healthcare via ACA had an impact on their bottom line
<2bdaedc4> hahaha
<8f79fcda> Give us narrative not counter-narrative
<2bdaedc4> I don’t think ACA is adding much overhead. Private insurance with all the various bullshit is a huge overhead regardless. That’s been well known. I don’t believe ACA added very muich to it, but if you want to really go off the rails..
<2bdaedc4> Narrative of what? we’d been fucked regardless. WIth or without lockdowns. You can go look at graph of Travis county, right smack in middle of SUmmer and see how things wer epanning out when it started to take hold and no measures were taken.
<2bdaedc4> But I don’t think any hospital that was anywhere near sound foooting.. the problem is healthcare as a profit just doesn’t work .. rural places can’t maintain them without socialized stuff going on.. so they unfortunatelyu went out of business. I was obnoxious in my reply to it, but only because I incorrectly guessed/assumed the source of hte belief that hospitals were being shutdown.
<8f79fcda> you’re describing the temperature of the water, and we’re saying shut off the burner.
^ that’s narrative
<2bdaedc4> still not following – just try to be a bit more direct. What narrative am I supposed to describe outside of how I see reality?
<2bdaedc4> Rural hostpitals have been dying for some time, old people are dying.. businesses are always going out of business. Covid would have accelerated all 3 REGARDLESS of what was done.
<8f79fcda> If your last point is true, than anything about a “new normal” vis-a-vis covid is pointless
<2bdaedc4> Having covid blow up and a ton of people who can’t foot the bill wouldn’t have helped them either IMO
<8f79fcda> So nothing can be done about it?
<2bdaedc4> something can be done about anything? Again, not following. It is all a matter of tradeoffs
<8f79fcda> If nothing can be done about it, then lockdowns, masks, etc. are useless gestures
<2bdaedc4> Saying everything would have been worse relative to pre-covid regardless of what done doesn’t mean they’re all equivalent options in any way.
<2bdaedc4> A lot of survivorship type bias going on when looking at htese things… I think thats the proper term for that bias
<2bdaedc4> Ok, not exactly the right application of the term but close.
<2bdaedc4> Covid is real.
<2bdaedc4> It is not a democratic hoax.
<2bdaedc4> Do we agree with that ?
<8f79fcda> Part 1 yes. Part 2 incorrect. It was a virus distributed by China
<8f79fcda> And the democrats have a vested interest in china’s success
<2bdaedc4> okey dokey
<2bdaedc4> distributed by china…..
<8f79fcda> Yes
<16108387> lol
<2bdaedc4> how are democrats vested in china’s success?
<8f79fcda> Well, Biden got 1.5billion from China … for starters
<2bdaedc4> and the russians love Trump.. who cares.. dude is your ADD legit worse than mine?
<16108387> haha
<8f79fcda> You asked about democrats and chyna
<2bdaedc4> True
<8f79fcda> 1.5b isn’t chump change
<16108387> trump change
<16108387> proof of this TrumpCardigan?
<2bdaedc4> I don’t even believe that to be true, but not going to go down endless rabbitholes.. It is obvious China is anti-Trump and Russia is pro-Trump and those are the other 2 world superpowers.
<2bdaedc4> that isn’t the same thing as saying democrats have a vested interested.. but whatever
<8f79fcda> Russia just cares enough about us as a big stick against China. Russia will get steamrolled quick if China makes a move.
<16108387> I want to see proof
<8f79fcda> Russia benefits from us being strong as a rook against China (chess metaphor)
<16108387> the things people believe these days…
<2bdaedc4> Anyway.. if you believe this a “china delivered virus” as opposed to “there is some chance China engineered this virus” … then I think we’d have commonground.
<8f79fcda> I’d say both aren’t too far from the truth
<8f79fcda> China shut down all continental flights and let international flights leave at the peak of the virus’ impact
<8f79fcda> And there is a preponderance of evidence (for example a whistleblower lab geek from Wuhan) that says China made it, and they were performing gain-of-function experiments on bat derived sars viruses
<2bdaedc4> I wouldn’t expect them to give a shit. China never has.. awful country
<2bdaedc4> but that is not evidence that they purposfully spread anything
<8f79fcda> And look who has benefitted the most: resellers of crap from China (I.e. Amazon) and online entertainment companies like FB and the streaming industry
<2bdaedc4> I don’t think people have been buying that much more chinese crap because of the virus.. outside of PPE what would this stuff be? China was fucked by this thing too. doh
<2bdaedc4> come’on man
<2bdaedc4> It was Jeff Bezos in the Wuhan Library and the vial of COVID-19
<8f79fcda> Well give me a second and I’ll find the chart from a few days back
<2bdaedc4> I was txting Joe back in Feb how to get big leverage shorting the market.. I don’t trade those markets so I am total newb… I only did this because I knew how much it was wreckign China. THe idea that they did that to themselves..
<2bdaedc4> Feb 8th I was txting Joe .. I would have bet multiple 5 figures on our market crashing because of how nasty this thing is.. to to think China did this to themselves to sell mroe stuff via Amazon… really
<2bdaedc4> I sorta wanted an all or nothing sorta deal though.. not like an ETF.. but walk away with a big chunk
<2bdaedc4> One of these days I’ll fuck with options more .. ahh well
<16108387> I think that Chyna talk, and China virus shit is super racist
<16108387> I would avoid saying unless your the kind of person who also says fag and nigger
<8f79fcda> We tend to clarify that in this chan referring to China is CCP. Not the people of China that live under a repressive regime
<16108387> check
<2bdaedc4> China is a real shithole that just spews out pollution and stuff.. garbage into the oceans.. the people basically kill all wildlife they can get their hands on.. but thats what free trade got us. Cheap stuff where costs of all the pollution is realized more directly on the other side of the world..
<8f79fcda> You just said it
<16108387> well this room maybe an exception, but when trump says it it doesnt sound like hes singling the CCP
<2bdaedc4> Trump is playing games and always has been.. he isn’t trying to inform and lead. Just maintain popularity with his base.
<8f79fcda> Also, the Chinese are the most racist people on the planet if you want to talk about that
<16108387> true, china did destroy some reefs and build artificial island in south China sea
<2bdaedc4> yea, chinese are far more racist towards black people than this country
<2bdaedc4> from my limited observation
<8f79fcda> By a long shot
<16108387> gah true, i take it back
<2bdaedc4> china surrounded galapagos islands and just fished the crap out of it.. they have no concept of sustainable anything
<2bdaedc4> the day that dam breaks.. wow
<2bdaedc4> I don’t fully blame China for their pollution. AMerican consumers are just as much to blame
<2bdaedc4> more or less…
<8f79fcda> The three gorges general thread (<http://4chan.org/tgdg|4chan.org/tgdg>) is good link fodder if you’re interested in that
<8f79fcda> Also > <#C015010GQMN|china-facts>
<2bdaedc4> you guys are like a upscale 4chan. I think I’ll contue not having spent any time on that site. lol
<8f79fcda> Yes, to a degree, but Germans (arbitrary country) buy cheap toasters from China too
<16108387> so on a per-capita basis, americans must be more pollution and less sustainable than the average chinese
<8f79fcda> If we want to talk about blaming the dumb deplorable Americans: by that rationale, they didn’t know any better, and our pollution issue with China was started by Bill motherfucking Clinton
<2bdaedc4> For sure
<16108387> How did Bill do it?
<2bdaedc4> I’m not blamign any particular person. It is your decision to take victimhood from my statement.
<2bdaedc4> any particular person or group
<16108387> Trump has manufacturing in China right?
<2bdaedc4> Bill was big free trade guy
<8f79fcda> Clinton gave China most favored nation and a seat at the WTO
<2bdaedc4> Anyway, I have no issue with Trump pushing back at China.. I just hate how all the plebs don’t see tariffs for what they are – taxes.
<2bdaedc4> yes, and that is why I qualified with “more or less” so attenmpt to preempt this type of response.
<8f79fcda> Clinton was big free trade, and China took advantage (not blaming them) by raising huge tariffs on imports TO China to shore up domestic economy
<8f79fcda> And our political leaders started wars in the middle east to prevent China from getting oil from Iraq
<8f79fcda> (For a Great book on that, read: The Oil Card)
<16108387> its like we forced them to burn dirty coal
<16108387> and then blame them for polluting
<8f79fcda> Nah, their coal is cheap trash compared to our sexy American anthracite coal
<16108387> coal === coal
<8f79fcda> So, all that’s to say, we (America) are in a bit of a pickle to maintain our sovereignty, bring back manufacturing, and not let chyna continue it’s abject theft of American Intellectual property.
<16108387> I think the whole bring back manufacturing is a backward move
<8f79fcda> And the best solution is hire a bombastic bastard like trump to see if it shakes up a political establishment that has a vested interest in continuing disadvantageous trade positions that impact the blue collar American worker
<16108387> <http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/638.html>
<16108387> chicago was a pollution hazard from all the manufacturing
<16108387> we really want to bring that back?
<8f79fcda> Well, as <@U06AWBLBD> pointed out – it’s all trade offs
<16108387> right, we already went down that path, and it didnt work
<16108387> so why do we need to revisit our past mistakes?
<16108387> people are actually fighting for their coal mining jobs? the same morons are voting for trump
<8f79fcda> Was the mistake gutting the rust belt for china’s sake? Or was it a big win that we shipped these jobs overseas?
<16108387> id say preserving our environment is a win
<8f79fcda> Anyone who’s a coder knows that cheap foreign labor undercuts our individual bottom lines
<16108387> if someone want sot hire an someone overseas fine by me, there are trade off to “Getting the job done cheap”
<2bdaedc4> our environment but in china there is no regulation.. and CO2 and ocean pollution affect us too
<8f79fcda> If you want to go for triple bottom line (profit + corporate good), that’s a discussion as well
<8f79fcda> That’s to say that CO2 regs only affect us and our GDP but no one else is held to that standard
<2bdaedc4> The world is pretty fucked regardless of what we do – we can try to make it reasonable though. Those are the sorts of problems Capitalism can’t begin to seriously fix – It does exacerbate them though.
<16108387> Capitalism – “This forest of trees are worthless unless we cut them all down”
<2bdaedc4> Yep
<8f79fcda> lol talk about oversimplifying a “side” lol
<16108387> the whole Fraking thig too, like, who needs drinking water anyway, ever heard of Bottle water form the store?! who needs fresh water in nature
<2bdaedc4> There is far far to it, but we’re talking about the stuff htat is rarely addressed vs the stuff that is blatantly obvious and hammered home by the right propaganda machines.
<16108387> the system is meant to consume more and more, there is no value set on pristine environment, just GDP
<9e126bf3> +public!
<2bdaedc4> yep
<2bdaedc4> and all these pro-life people couldn’t give a rat’s ass, but oh man they virtue signal
<8f79fcda> y’all are very like “kill them all and let god sort’em out”
<2bdaedc4> how so ?
<16108387> The world is very competitive place, you have to mine and harvest all your natural resources to get ahead, and to defend against the crazy people leading wars
<2bdaedc4> i’m more like “kill em all and god? lol”
<16108387> all it takes is one crazy leader who wants ot fight and then everyone needs to build armies and weapons etc..
<16108387> in a perfect world we would just chill and realize there is plenty to go around for everyone
<16108387> buut haha yeah
<2bdaedc4> and when resources start to run low.. it is going get nasty
<16108387> I think pipelines and Fraking are meant to do just that
<8f79fcda> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap|https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap>
— Thucydides Trap
— The Thucydides Trap, also referred to as Thucydides’s Trap, is a term coined by American political scientist Graham T. Allison to describe an apparent tendency towards war when an emerging power threatens to displace an existing great power as the international hegemon. It was coined and is primarily used to describe a potential conflict between the United States and the People’s Republic of China.The term is based on a quote by ancient Athenian historian and military general Thucydides, which posits that the Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta had been inevitable because of Spartan fear of the growth of Athenian power.
<2bdaedc4> capitalism is all about maximally exploiting either labor or environment. Thats how you make profit. That makes a better standard of living in general for everyone, but there are reallllly big downsides to all this.
<8f79fcda> So here we are back to “water is hot. But there’s no point in trying to reach down and turn off the burner”
<2bdaedc4> you are back at that.. I don’t know anyting about “we”
<2bdaedc4> I don’t propose I have solutions to most things but I do know a few things. And one of those is you have to acknowledge issues before you can fix them.
<2bdaedc4> whether drug addiction or anything else
<8f79fcda> Ok
<2bdaedc4> people see it all differently.. somne think world is b&w.. either capitalism or communism and communism isn’t an improvement on most regards – therefore Capitalism is perfect. Or people believe free market solutions fix everything..
<2bdaedc4> black and white..= b&w
<2bdaedc4> but if you can’t see the glaring defeciences in capitalism – then pretty hard to correct anything
<8f79fcda> Capitalism is the logical extension (perhaps exaggeration) of personal ownership of property. People also dont see that side of capitalism. That you are free to do with what you are rightful owner of.
<8f79fcda> On the other side of the spectrum is that nobody owns anything and the state is final arbiter of your life
<2bdaedc4> capitalism has allowed us to flourish.. perhaps too much.
<2bdaedc4> Well, capitalism degenerates into a few people owning a lot.. which oddly resembles the state
<8f79fcda> Sure, but which one has compulsory vs. voluntary participation?
<2bdaedc4> they’re both compulsory
<8f79fcda> See what you just said: “they’re both compulsory” is the mindset that needs to be broken
<2bdaedc4> how so?
<8f79fcda> If what you say is true, then who/what made it that way?
<2bdaedc4> if you are born into a communist country it is compulsory same as capitalism.
<2bdaedc4> you can resist in either
<8f79fcda> There are many “isms” besides those two
<8f79fcda> We choose to rail on communism here for two main reasons/ 1) CCP 2) state control of your life is anathema to free people
<8f79fcda> 3) opt out of anything that you do not align with, or that you can’t stomach the consequences of being a part of
<2bdaedc4> Sure but thats not how things are discussed.. you go along with masks you’re a cuck – you don’t lick cop boots you are BLM supporter -> therefore a commie. I wish I didn’t believe this is true, but it seems to be far more true than not.
<2bdaedc4> You can’t opt out of things that affect your environment. I wish..
<2bdaedc4> Whether the natural environment and just your general existence.